US Presidential Election 2016
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Roth Offline Baeven

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22nd February 2016 12:37 PM
Post: #1
Primaries are soon-ish so I believe now is as good of a time as any to start talking in-depth about the upcoming election.


As for me, I'd really like to support Bernie right now, but I think Philo may be right in that we need a better politician/leader rather than Sanders' pure idealism. I think it's wonderful that somebody like Bernie can get as much support as he can, but I don't have the confidence he'd do well with a Republican legislation. Ideally, I would go with Bernie though.

As for the Republicans, I might be alone on this but I think Trump is the least bad option out of the candidates. Immigration-wise he's reprehensible but he doesn't actually have well laid out plans, and everything else he's not that far right on. He would just be a puppet of the senate since he's such a poor politician. Ted Cruz and Marco Rubuo on the other hand actually know their way around politics and I feel like they could do more damage than Trump can

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Maiev Offline Architeuthis

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22nd February 2016 04:03 PM
Post: #2
(22nd February 2016 12:37 PM)Yin Wrote:  As for me, I'd really like to support Bernie right now, but I think Philo may be right in that we need a better politician/leader rather than Sanders' pure idealism. I think it's wonderful that somebody like Bernie can get as much support as he can, but I don't have the confidence he'd do well with a Republican legislation. Ideally, I would go with Bernie though.

I'm not an American, and doubt I'll be as in-depth as others might be, but what do you think Hillary will do that aligns with what you want for your country? Additionally, what to you says that she's a good leader/politician, how would this help, and in what ways do you view Bernie as lacking in that regard relative to her?


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(This post was last modified: 22nd February 2016 04:14 PM by Maiev.)
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Runic Offline Woosh

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22nd February 2016 05:17 PM
Post: #3
I think Hilary gets far too much hate and she's no where near as bad as people make out.

I'm a supporter of Sanders, but people really love to beat down on Hilary for some reason.
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Ridley Offline You're gonna have a bad time.

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22nd February 2016 05:44 PM
Post: #4
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Toga Offline what doth life

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22nd February 2016 06:00 PM
Post: #5
I think the following mostly thanks to Philo's detailed examinations, as my knowledge of American politics (and politics in general) is lacking to say the least, but I think, as for now, that Hillary seems like the most sensible choice for the democratic vote.

Although I support the great majority of Bernie Sanders stances, policies and ways to handle his political campaign, they might be just too idealistic and oblivious to certain realities of American economics and politics in general as is to be viable in practice.

However, it's a good thing that Americans have him this far into the presidential race. His views and presence have motivated so many more people to vote that wouldn't previously have as I remember some saying that voting would be ultimately pointless before he showed up.
(This post was last modified: 22nd February 2016 06:01 PM by Toga.)
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Ridley Offline You're gonna have a bad time.

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22nd February 2016 06:07 PM
Post: #6
Here is my biggest problem with Donald Trump: He's not in it for anyone but himself.

You might (and I do) disagree really strongly with Cruz or Rubio, but fundamentally they are in it to help their country and their people. They could have gotten way better paying and more powerful jobs in the private sector, but opted to work from the bottom in public service as their career.

Trump seemed to enter for self promotion as an ego thing, he isn't interested in helping anyone but himself. Which is disgusting.
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Philo Offline yiff yap

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22nd February 2016 09:31 PM
Post: #7
Neoliberal Hillaryite shill reporting for duty.

In all seriousness, I support Hillary although I really do like several things about Bernie. I can go into detail about my reasons for those who have not been privy to previous conversations on the matter, but the bullet-point version is:
  • I'm not convinced the Sanders camp knows what they're talking about on economics. This isn't a matter of "more left" vs. "more right," the devil is in the details. I'm skeptical of a national $15 minimum wage because the cost of living/purchasing power of the dollar varies so much across the country. I think $15 is completely appropriate and necessary in a place like New York or Seattle, but I'm wary about it's effect on employment in places where the cost of living is much lower.

    The plan to finance public services primarily through taxes on financial transactions is not reliable, it's not a robust revenue stream because why wouldn't individuals and institutions just sit on more assets, etc.? This is putting aside issues of whether or not increased financial transaction taxes are independently desirable.

    Sanders' focus primarily on Glass-Steagall with respect to the financial crisis is misguided and does not inspire great confidence in his visions for financial regulation. The problem was shadow banking (institutions not technically classified as "banks" so barely subject to the relevant regulations even before the Glass-Steagall repeal) and massive over-leverage that infected the entire system, helped along by risky securitization practices, not primarily the re-combining of consumer and investment banking for "proper" banks.

    Clinton, in contrast, not only has a relatively detailed understanding of finance for a politician, but of economics (particularly public economics) in general. For example, she supports a $12 inflation-indexed minimum wage, which is within the bounds of where macroeconomists are fairly confident that it will not have too much of an adverse effect on employment, and more importantly is inflation-indexed. She had detailed plans for a national infrastructure bank, a pan-North-American carbon trading scheme, etc.
  • On health care, why I ultimately want a much more substantial safety net than we have now, it's a tricky problem and I'm not sure I'm sold on Sanders' single-payer approach because there is little attention paid to the underlying problem, which is out-of-control provision costs, not the mere existence of private insurance to pay those costs. Sanders is more or less saying that we will all collectively insure each other, which I have mixed views on (Canada seems to be doing alright but many other systems that do not do exactly this work better, like Switzerland, the Nordics, Germany, and the Netherlands), but doesn't address the underlying problem and is not a sustainable solution.

    Obamacare is only part of the way we need to go, but it's an important groundwork that needs to be protected from further assaults and incrementally built upon.
  • On foreign policy, it's simply not clear that Sanders knows or cares much about the topic. We're in a transitional period geopoliticially in many ways (post-Pax-Americana, seismic shifts in energy) and very careful geopolitical maneuvering will be important for making sure the US maintains a desirable state of affairs.
  • We are facing at a bare minimum a hostile house and many hostile state governments, possibly a hostile senate as well. Having an insider negotiator is more important than having an idealist in such a situation. In general, I think Clinton's more stakeholder-oriented approach to politics is more appropriate for the current political situation.
  • Relatedly, at least early in the presidency, fighting strategically to preserve the achievements of the Obama administration and building on them incrementally seems vastly more achievable and higher-priority than sweeping new reforms, whether we'd want them in an ideal world or not. Even if the Democrats regain control of the senate, regaining the house is a long-shot and the Democratic party has completely and utterly failed strategically in state-level politics, so we're also likely going to be dealing with hostile state governments for the foreseeable future, although perhaps not as many.
  • Given the above plus a supreme court vacancy, I think a Democrat winning is priority number 1, and I think Clinton is more electable. Pre-primary pairwise hypothetical match-ups, which Sanders supporters like to cite in support of Sanders' electability, have almost no predictive value and are misleading. In terms of factors which are more predictive, such as demographics and ideological preference, Clinton has an advantage.

I have to go to class so I'll update this post later, but I do want to say some more things I like about Sanders, and provide some counterarguments to points I've made against Sanders, for completeness'-sake.

(22nd February 2016 06:07 PM)Ridley Wrote:  Here is my biggest problem with Donald Trump: He's not in it for anyone but himself.

You might (and I do) disagree really strongly with Cruz or Rubio, but fundamentally they are in it to help their country and their people. They could have gotten way better paying and more powerful jobs in the private sector, but opted to work from the bottom in public service as their career.

Trump seemed to enter for self promotion as an ego thing, he isn't interested in helping anyone but himself. Which is disgusting.

This difference in approach is interesting, and I think pretty fundamental. I would prefer someone who does something marginally less bad even if they do it for horribly odious reasons, rather than someone who does a worse thing for good reasons.

To give an extreme example, I'd rather have a completely pro-choice politician who is only pro-choice because they are paid to be than a strongly anti-choice politician who is so out of sincere conviction.
(This post was last modified: 22nd February 2016 11:44 PM by Philo.)
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Ridley Offline You're gonna have a bad time.

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22nd February 2016 10:14 PM
Post: #8
I just think it makes trump really really dangerous: He'll do whatever to further his brand, screw whether it hurts millions.
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Roth Offline Baeven

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22nd February 2016 11:01 PM
Post: #9
I get that, but to me, Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz will do bad things for the right reason anyway, and still hurt millions anyway. The end result is the same to me.

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Maiev Offline Architeuthis

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22nd February 2016 11:29 PM
Post: #10
I kinda wish Bernie Sanders would talk about his opinions on foreign policy more. His website has a couple of pages on the subject and all, but he could really do to talk about it more. He's certainly been very opinionated in past, I've seen videos of a couple pretty impassioned speeches he gave on the subject, especially about Iraq.


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ScientificToast Offline Filly

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4th May 2016 11:20 PM
Post: #11
So, I live in that state that ALL the news channels and presidential candidates were focusing on for a while, and still focusing somewhat on it (that state being Indiana), and I can say I'm disappointed who we voted for on the GOP side.

I know I probably shouldn't care since I supported Sanders, but I thought people would be smarter than that here. At least Sanders won Indiana by like, 3 or 4%.
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Roth Offline Baeven

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5th May 2016 01:09 AM
Post: #12
Looks like it's going to be Clinton vs Trump this year.

I want to wake up.

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Xinder Offline CORRECTION COUNTER: 131

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5th May 2016 03:44 AM
Post: #13
[Image: VOTELOKI2016001-cov-10262-afd16.jpg]

[Image: haro.gif]
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Travis Offline i rrerr therefore i am

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5th May 2016 03:45 AM
Post: #14
(5th May 2016 03:44 AM)Xinder Wrote:  -snip-

At this point I'm considering it
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ScientificToast Offline Filly

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5th May 2016 03:47 AM
Post: #15
(5th May 2016 03:45 AM)Travis Wrote:  At this point I'm considering it

Better than the lying woman (Clinton). C:
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Xinder Offline CORRECTION COUNTER: 131

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5th May 2016 04:01 AM
Post: #16
btw this is an actual comic coming out june 1st from Marvel. here's another variant cover

[Image: VOTELOKI2016001-cov-var-25d4b-eb398.jpg]

i'll probably buy it because i'm stupid

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Travis Offline i rrerr therefore i am

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5th May 2016 04:02 AM
Post: #17
(5th May 2016 04:01 AM)Xinder Wrote:  btw this is an actual comic coming out june 1st from Marvel. here's another variant cover
-snip-

i'll probably buy it because i'm stupid

Nah, you're not stupid. It looks amusing.
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ScientificToast Offline Filly

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5th May 2016 04:03 AM
Post: #18
(5th May 2016 04:01 AM)Xinder Wrote:  btw this is an actual comic coming out june 1st from Marvel. here's another variant cover

-snipped-

i'll probably buy it because i'm stupid

Do want. To the comic book store... at 11pm. C:
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Philo Offline yiff yap

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5th May 2016 04:06 AM
Post: #19
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ScientificToast Offline Filly

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5th May 2016 10:18 PM
Post: #20
I hate my state now. Why the hell do they want Clinton?

Oh well.
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Philo Offline yiff yap

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5th May 2016 10:21 PM
Post: #21
(5th May 2016 10:18 PM)ScientificToast Wrote:  I hate my state now. Why the hell do they want Clinton?

Oh well.

Bernie won Indiana 53-47, which is what the model predicted. I think you may be misreading the chart.
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Ridley Offline You're gonna have a bad time.

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6th May 2016 12:49 AM
Post: #22
I have some Burnie friends who are saying that they'll vote for Trump instead of ever vote for Hillary Clinton.

That's like saying "The Ice Cream Shop didn't have chocolate so I burned it down"
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Xinder Offline CORRECTION COUNTER: 131

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6th May 2016 12:50 AM
Post: #23
i would will the box rating into existence on any site where i saw someone say that

i prefer bernie for sure, but the idea of taking trump over hillary is just...it's really dumb.

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(This post was last modified: 6th May 2016 12:51 AM by Xinder.)
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Baconheart Offline ­

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6th May 2016 01:14 AM
Post: #24
I love that the Clinton campaign released a Trump attack ad

And it's just a compilation of some of the awful shit he's said because what else do you need?

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Travis Offline i rrerr therefore i am

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6th May 2016 01:30 AM
Post: #25
I'm just hoping sanity wins out in the end, and most of the voters realize that Trump is horribly unfit to be president.

I don't believe that he could honestly win, but I never believed he'd get this far either, so I am a bit worried.
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ScientificToast Offline Filly

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6th May 2016 05:05 AM
Post: #26
(6th May 2016 01:30 AM)Travis Wrote:  I'm just hoping sanity wins out in the end, and most of the voters realize that Trump is horribly unfit to be president.

I don't believe that he could honestly win, but I never believed he'd get this far either, so I am a bit worried.

Everyone says it's gonna be Trump and Clinton this election but I'm not giving my hopes up like everyone else seems to have. It is worrysome that there's a good chance of him becoming president.

I'm still with Sanders. C:
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